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Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007, 10:39 am
The Black Hole Of Wikipedia

shsilver informs me that the Wikipedia page about me is under discussion for deletion.

This amuses me to no end.

It was under discussion for deletion in 2004, y'know. I didn't even know I had a Wikipedia page until sarekofvulcan told me it was under the gun.

I say now what I said then: I don't need a Wikipedia page. I mean, I like having it, and if I think about it I suppose I can justify to myself that I might deserve one. I have done a few things of some note.

But for all that I love and support Wikipedia, there is one thing about it that makes me crazy (and if you really want a rant on this topic, just wind up partiallyclips): the notion that someone can decide you're not worthy of inclusion on the apparent basis of their likes and dislikes.

The guy who's trying to get me deleted seems to have a problem with my existing on Wikipedia because I'm not notable enough, or something. His own page lists him as "a comics/SF fan with a background in mathematics, living in the Greater Manchester area (that's in England, folks)". It mentions his Doctor Who fandom, and hints that there's a story behind his nickname. And, apparently, he comments on his own page.

I'm not calling for the deletion of his page.

ETA: The call to delete the page was withdrawn. Many thanks for the yeoman work, gang. I am flattered by and grateful for your efforts to prove that I'm Somebody.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 02:56 pm (UTC)
jonnorthwood

*laugh* Randy of Something Positive found out that his page was deleted, as well, IIRC.

Perhaps someone felt his "lack of notoriety" was interfering with their lint collection or some such. ;)

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:34 pm (UTC)
filkertom

Yeah, he mentions that below. I could've sworn the idea of Wikipedia was to include everything. Lack of recognition in the mainstream for otherwise worthy things is one of the reasons for having a Wikipedia.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 02:57 pm (UTC)
giza: Minor clarification of terms

I know I'm being pedantic here, but I feel the need to clarify the terminology so as to clear up any misconceptions that may arise further down in the comments.

It's not "your WikiPedia article", but rather "an article on WikiPedia about you". The reason why I make that distinction is that the former implies ownership of the content while the latter implies that you are the subject of an article, which is more accurate.

And the reason I'm even mentioning this is that, given my experience on WikiFur, people will confuse the two. :-/

Good luck!

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:01 pm (UTC)
filkertom: Re: Minor clarification of terms

Interesting point. I adjusted the wording above from "my Wikipedia page" to "the Wikipedia page about me". Better?

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:08 pm (UTC)
bathtubnz

As I am sure others will chime in, a lot of stuff hase been deleted lately, Dementia Radio, Hot Waffles, at least yours is getting a discussion. Apparently someone thinks that if they don't know who you are, you have to go.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:28 pm (UTC)
stevemb

The amusing thing is that the Defender Of Wikipedia Standards[tm] who initiated the deletion vote seems to have found some standards (i.e. the one that says "notify the article creator about deletion votes") to be less equal than others.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:12 pm (UTC)
crwilley

The simple fact that a "filkers" category exists says to me that notable filkers, and I don't think anyone can argue that you're not a notable filker, get pages about them...seems like a no-brainer to me.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:24 pm (UTC)
filkertom

See, at core this is why I encourage people to avoid the terms "filk" and "filkers" when discussing the genre with nonfilkers. I remember seeing posters for room parties which read, "Real Music - No Filk". I am going through forty-seven kinds of I don't even want to say with Dragon*Con because the filkers are treated differently from the "musicians" -- i.e., the Celtic acts and the goth bands. We are musicians first and foremost, dammit, and filk is our genre, not our phylum.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:13 pm (UTC)
ericthemage

I just added the link to the SciFi Channel's review of your CD and book. I wonder if that's notable enough for this jerk. :-D

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:18 pm (UTC)
filkertom

Thanks. There was also a review of Last Hero on scifi.com's SciFi Weekly.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:22 pm (UTC)
emiofbrie

Looks like the "Great Dementia Decimation" is still going on.... -.-

Tom Lehrer, yes TOM LEHRER, was even briefly considered for deletion, until a mod (who recognized Lehrer's impact) intervened and not only untagged the article, but DELETED THE DISCUSSION AND ANY REFERENCES TO IT out of embarrassment.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:23 pm (UTC)
emiofbrie

also....

http://dementiawiki.wikispaces.com/

If Wikipedia won't have us, we'll make our own Wiki! With Blackjack! And Hookers!! ;)

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:26 pm (UTC)
admnaismith

"I want the expurgated version."

"The expurgated version of Wikipedia?"

"Yes. The one without Tom Smith."

"The one without Tom Smith? They've all got Tom Smith! He's a standard, erm, topic for an encyclopedia. Smith's in all the Wikipedias!"

"Well, I don't like him. He wets his lyrics."

(pause)

"All right, then. I'll remove him!" RIIIIIIP There! No Tom Smith! You happy now?"

"I don't like Jon Stewart either..."

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:33 pm (UTC)
jeriendhal

Damn, now I have to get my Computer Support to replace my keyboard.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:26 pm (UTC)
dlobok

Heh - mine was deleted a week or so back because "no one's heard of my comic."

Yeah. It's just read by more than a quarter of a million people.

Wikipolitics are weird.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:30 pm (UTC)
filkertom

Like I said, talk to Rob. Apparently there's some admin or other who doesn't like web comics, or thinks they have no audience or importance, or something -- a matter easily disproved with a single T-shirt.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:33 pm (UTC)
nimitzbrood: Maybe you _should_ call for his page to be deleted..

Just FYI this also is happening/happened to John Lotshaw of Accidental Centaurs.

This whole thing goes against the spirit of Wikipedia...

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:38 pm (UTC)
drzarron

WiKipedia serves one great purpose, it serves as a home for all those officious, heads up their asses, idiots giving them a place to go, so they'll leave the rest of us alone.

They're are from the same group of people who use to write LOCs to fanzines.

But, seriously, its these people who defend WiKi's that will be their downfall. Cause applying complete analism and assholeism to the editing practice will destroy everything that WiKi's were created to do.

Feh

Thu, Aug. 30th, 2007 01:12 pm (UTC)
sarekofvulcan

Ahem. :-)

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:44 pm (UTC)
shsilver

Apparently the guy who started it all just found an article that quotes you in the Times of India

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:51 pm (UTC)
filkertom: Three More

The Wired article from last year.

The Bodyhack blog entry about my song "Bodyhacking".

The AfterElton.com blog and subsequent interview regarding "Two Guys Kissin' Ruined My Life".

This is fun. :)

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:52 pm (UTC)
winterwren

I just added in support, having played your music on my radio show back in '92-'93.

Obviously, this dude has way too much argument time on his hands.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:55 pm (UTC)
smallship1

Zsero has it right in the discussion. This guy, I think (I haven't met him, but I recognise the characteristic call), is one of a type of British fan, now hopefully dying out, that actively despises and wants to suppress, or at least be able to ignore, any branch of fandom in which he or she is not interested. (I say British because I haven't encountered any American fans who are that stupid. YMMV.) They all for some reason focus on filk.

And yes, drzarron, I think they mainly do stem, at least over here, from the remnants of fanzine fandom, though not all fanzine fans are like that. They remember fondly when they were the only game in town, before Star Wars and Science Fiction Monthly* between them opened the floodgates to all us riffraff. This one is atypical in being a Whovian...

*You won't know about this unless you're British. It was a publicity gimmick by a certain publisher, and consisted of large reproductions of their book cover art (which at that time wasn't bad) interspersed with stories and articles about sf in general. One month they printed the location of the monthly London pub meetings...

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:58 pm (UTC)
filkertom

Jeez. I thought that was why we all have our own blogs/LJs/MySpace/FaceBook pages, and why conventions have different programming tracks.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:58 pm (UTC)
winterwren: Debate Over

Seems he has withdrawn his objection.

Grin.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 03:58 pm (UTC)
shsilver: Nomination Withdrawn

He's withdrawn the nomination. One second after I referred to the citation Tom received in Brave New Words (good call, Tom).

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 04:02 pm (UTC)
katyhh: Re: Nomination Withdrawn

Yup, he did. Yay.
Now, the question is ... which filker is up next for deletion ... Sigh.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 04:02 pm (UTC)
ericthemage

The whole thing reminded me of William Shatner's "Has Been":
Riding on their armchairs
They dream of wealth and fame
Fear is their companion
Nintendo is their game
Never done jack and two thumbs Don
And sidekick don't say dick
We'll laugh at others failures
Though they have not done shit

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 04:20 pm (UTC)
druidsfire

And look at his page... I'll quote:

Ok, new amendment: stay away from BLP's and the filk crowd (those bitches have claws). --Mark H Wilkinson (t, c) 16:07, 23 August 2007 (UTC)

I am amused.

(And yes, my DR show's page was summarily deleted as well, not that I honestly give much of a damn.)

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 04:40 pm (UTC)
filkertom

Good lord. Did someone pee in his oatmeal this morning, or what? Dude starts a one-man campaign to nuke me for specious if not spurious reasons, argues about it all morning with people shoving citations under his nose, and finishes it off with calling all of us "bitches". If I had a Christmas Card list, he'd be off it.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 04:31 pm (UTC)
ohiblather

My Wikipedia page was deleted a while back, and I was responsible. I was flattered that someone cared enough to put up a page about me, but it was focused on filk and comics, not mentioning my freelance writing at all. Unfortunately it also came up as one of the first hits when you searched my name.

My problem was that I consider myself primarily a writer, and if an editor did a search whilst considering my mss, they would come across the Wikipedia entry first. So I added some extra info to the page about my writing.

One of the admins posted a comment at the top saying that my page now sounded like an ad. Sigh. I made some edits. The "this is an ad" message stayed.

Now my Wikipedia entry was even worse pr for me. As much as I value and support Wikipedia, I would much rather NOT have a page about me in it if I don't have control over what goes on that page, since Wikipedia is regarded by many as an accurate reference.

So I deleted most of the page except the bare minimum info. Of course then, the page was flagged for deletion, and I admit I was relieved when it was finally deleted.

And that's my Wikipedia story. :-)

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 04:37 pm (UTC)
filkertom

Awwww. [hugs] I wonder sometimes if I should put more of a general bio of myself up on that page. Thing is, it does come off somewhat as a press release, but that was the only way to get enough information up there to stave off deletion in the first place. I haven't got that much darn & dirty, and I don't think anyone really wants all the sordid details of my medical history, work history, or love life.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 05:03 pm (UTC)
wormquartet

Yeah, my little presence on Wikipedia was nominated for deletion a while back as well, but ultimately kept (without me even knowing about it until after the fact.)

I just read your deletion thread...the way this weenie talks like he's in some sort of position of power is just amazing. I wrote a song a while back called "Strap-On Brain" about this - how various idiots, when given the tiniest smidgen of power, will lord it over you like they're God (DMV workers, security guards, a handful of teachers, etc.) The phenomenon has always amused and irritated me...I wanna be able to just shake my head and laugh at it, but given the chance I'd happily bitchslap this weenbag.

-=ShoEboX=-

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 05:11 pm (UTC)
filkertom

Been there, done that. Middle Management -- God's answer to humble competence.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 05:28 pm (UTC)
zibblsnrt

It seems these days that half or more of the Wikipedia articles out there are either locked, protected, or facing multiple deletion attempts. (I'm surprised at the number of articles that have a call for deletion, say, every six months since 2003. The hell?)

I'm surprised he didn't nominate the whole category, though. Most people who go after an article because it's connected to X tend to nominate five or ten or fifty others at the same time.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 05:43 pm (UTC)
filkertom

Well, hell. Maybe I'm notable enough now to act as an anchor for the category, at least.

And with that, he went to get lunch.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 06:09 pm (UTC)
kightp

You're in good company. There's been an ongoing controversy over the Talk Like a Pirate Day entry on Wikipedia, although it seems to have been resolved by the insertion of relevant source citations. (We let others bash that out).

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 07:37 pm (UTC)
filkertom

Heh. Funny. And you just gave me a great idea, which I think I'll discuss in another thread sometime today or tomorrow.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 07:38 pm (UTC)
denali1

Actually, in reviewing some of this guys remarks in other places, he just seems to be a garden variety asshole.

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 07:45 pm (UTC)
liddle_oldman

"In the future, everyone will have a Wikipedia page for fifteen minutes."

Thu, Aug. 23rd, 2007 08:23 pm (UTC)
jmthane

Minstrosity had a Wikipedia page for about fifteen minutes a couple of years ago. Then it got challenged and deleted. Seems we didn't have any notoriety, either. (Tom's better known than we were.)

Personally, I think the folks who look at the music categories on Wiki stop looking when it gets to folk and filk music and just say "this should be deleted". And Gods help you if you're a Ren Faire band (which we were)...