Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012, 01:39 pm
NO NO NO NO NO
At least 27 dead, including at least 18 children, in Connecticut elementary school shooting
Peace and condolences and whatever cold comfort may be taken by the families of the dead and wounded.
Anybody want to say they should have open carry at a FUCKING ELEMENTARY SCHOOL!?
You know. Elementary school. Kindergarten through fourth grade.
Anybody want to bring up the fucking Second Amendment rights to goddamn arm yourselves under every possible circumstances? Anybody want to tell me the teachers and secretaries at a fucking elementary school should've been packing, and then, by God, they woulda taken him down right quick? Anybody want to suggest Rambo or Chuck Norris are better role models than Elmo or Mr. Rogers?
Four weapons on this guy. Possibly a second shooter.
An elementary school.
I don't want to hear about goddamn gun rights for a long, long time. I ask those who have argued in favor of firearms in the past, please understand. I am not attacking you, I am not attacking the Second Amendment.
Huh. I feel I have to say that, because some of you will go off on me about constitutional rights
and protect ourselves from the government
and guns don't kill people, people kill people
and on and on and on. If I mention gun control, you'll freak out.
Well, then, freak the fuck out.
I am horrified, and disgusted with the goddamned fucking NRA and the spineless bastard lawmakers -- all of them, Dem and Repub -- that kowtow to them.
Because something was drastically wrong with this guy.
And he got guns anyway. Several of them.
Our lawmakers, and the ones who lobbied them, made sure he could get them.
And he shot up an elementary school.
ETA: added a bit about my cowardly disclaimer.This entry was originally posted at http://filkertom.dreamwidth.org/1586119.html. You may comment there or here, although LJ tends to have a livelier conversation at this time.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 06:54 pm (UTC)
I got an RT of at least one person arguing explicitly that the teachers and administrators at that school should have been carrying, because the gun-free zone "[m]akes children sitting ducks."
I'm attacking him. I'm attacking him and people like him head-on.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 07:51 pm (UTC)
Speaking of which, Gov. Snyder is scheduled to sign a bill legalizing concealed carry in schools today.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 06:57 pm (UTC)
I'm sitting here just bawling. I have grandchildren in elementary school. It's eleven days until Christmas. There are Kindergartners among the dead.
The next person that says, "You can take my gun when you pry it from my cold dead hands." needs to have that statement taken as a CHALLENGE!
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 08:28 pm (UTC)
To quote Men in Black I
: "Proposal accepted."
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 06:59 pm (UTC)
loriruadh: Damn, Damn, Damn, Damn
I don't know whether to turn the news on, or go hide in a corner.
An ELEMENTARY school?!
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 07:19 pm (UTC)
vixyish: Re: Damn, Damn, Damn, Damn
I can't stop thinking about Stockton in 1989.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 07:00 pm (UTC)
I have no words. I'm trying to keep from crying at work.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 07:01 pm (UTC)
As I said on FB...
Predicted reaction from the NRA to the tragedy in Connecticut: "If only more 10-year-olds were permitted to carry firearms to elementary school, this would never have happened."
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 10:05 pm (UTC)
I've already seen that one said with a straight face.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 07:02 pm (UTC)
I have no words right now for how I feel. I'm in shock and horrified at the actions of a cowardly, evil man. How do you decide to kill children? No I don't think that the teachers should have been armed. I think that we need to make a world where people don't need guns because we all love one another, and where children can be safe from people like the coward who did the shooting.
Its things like this that make me hate guns more than I already do. I don't have any answers right now, and I dearly wish that I did.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 07:08 pm (UTC)
Babies. He was killing babies
We need more strict rules on who can get a gun, and what kind of gun. We need stronger mental health care, we need safety nets for people who fall through the cracks of the mental health system. We need SOMETHING, dammit, but what we've got ISNT WORKING.
I want to drive to my 17 year old's school and hug her and I am sitting at work in tears because this could happen ANYWHERE. It could have been her school, it could have been my nephew's school, it could have been any school in the damn country. This KEEPS HAPPENING.
Sat, Dec. 15th, 2012 06:41 am (UTC)
And... it will keep happening.
I am not saying we should have stronger safety nets, better mental health care, better gun safety training and background checks. We definitely need them. They will reduce incidents like this, and thankfully incidents like this are already quite rare.
The problem is stuffing Teh Crazy back in the box, which is difficult to do with one political movement using the politics of emotional rage to maintain their grip on power. I'd have said dying grip, but sadly it looks like they have some years left.
*sigh* Policy arguments mean little to a mother or father who has lost their precious child My thoughts are with the victims' families and friends, and with the town. Sober and rational reflection on preventing future atrocities can happen a little later, given the chance.
If people don't keep whipping up the rage quotient, I mean.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 07:12 pm (UTC)
It strikes me, on the question of gun control and the general unwillingness to discuss it, that this sort of thing will keep happening until the very thing the anti-control people want to prevent becomes the only accepted answer; No guns available to citizens at all.
It's high time for an adult discussion. A reasonable discussion. Before it becomes far too late for anything of the sort.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 07:23 pm (UTC)
It doesn't seem like we're capable of an adult discussion about the weather, let alone the important things like gun control.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 07:49 pm (UTC)
Arm the six year olds... Because god knows the adults can't handle the responsibility...
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 08:03 pm (UTC)
William Kone: six is a bit young
My eight year old daughter is doing very well with her 20 gauge with trap shooting. (much like her Olympic hero Kim Rhode) She has safety down and is a great shot. I trust her better than I trusted some of my platoon members.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 07:49 pm (UTC)
Can we PLEASE do something about the mental health system in this country? Please?
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 08:45 pm (UTC)
There are plenty of cases where someone with issues has never gotten into the mental health system before they do something this big. While I had a lot of screening when I was a kid (that's what they do with learning disabled kids), most of my peers never saw a shrink.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 08:00 pm (UTC)
William Kone: there was something wrong with this guy
But until we know more about him (like his name, what he has done in the past, etc) we can't know what it was.
Mental illness is a bar to firearm ownership. Because of laws like HIPPA, the government won't know if you're taking anti-psycotic meds, or seeing a psychologist or are in therapy for anger issues. Unless you get in trouble with the law, it does not turn up on any back ground checks.
This is to "protect" people with mental illnesses from discrimination.
To keep anyone with any possible mental illness from owning a firearm, this would require the FBI to have unrestricted access to your personal medical files to be able to review any drug you have ever taken, know what doctors or therapy you have ever received. I'm very sure I don't want that.
Something is wrong that this guy (or guys? the media can't seem to figure this out yet). He should not have had a weapon, much less a dull spoon. But how would anyone have known if he never was committed or treated under court order? With out unlimited access to everyone's medical records the government would not be able to check. (granted this guy could turn out to be a long term committed/jailed nut who had been in and out of prison and mental centers for all his life. We don't know at this time. If he did, someone screwed up in letting him buy a firearm)
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 08:17 pm (UTC)
lizziecrowe: Re: there was something wrong with this guy
There are instances where the government can override HIPPA to get med records. We just need ti to be BEFORE something like this happens. And it would NOT require the FBI to have unrestricted access to meds records. It would, by its very definition be restricted. One purpose, one reason for access, simple yea or nay. Considering the nature of my FBI file, I wouldn't be surprised it there's something in there already, yet I still passed a federal background check for my job.
We have to draw the line SOMEHWERE.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 08:06 pm (UTC)
In the face of horror, it's very human to want to make changes that will prevent bad things from happening. Some feel that the answer to the problem is to wrap guns up in so many layers of red tape that they go away. Some feel that an armed society is a polite one. Neither side wants to see children die.
It's hard to remember in the face of emotion that someone who disagrees with you probably wants the same end result you do. It's human nature to see something awful and think "how can I prevent this?" I'm trying to keep compassion in my heart for both sides of the argument.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 08:31 pm (UTC)
Thank you for this. You are very right.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 08:08 pm (UTC)
I can just hear the NRA now "If only our kids were Ramboed up starting in kindergarten, this never could have happened."
I have no words nasty and scornful enough for them, and no words gentle enough for the victims and their families. I hope, in time, they can find some peace.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 09:20 pm (UTC)
Bryan Fisher already said it.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 08:25 pm (UTC)
I think we need to make a point that most people with mental health conditions never have and never would hurt anyone. They like the rest of us would wrestle crocodiles to protect a child.
But a small minority are dangerous to the public, (at least sometimes.) Sometimes people are fine while in treatment or on meds, and very different without them.
There are all sorts of rules in place for who gets to have guns, and which guns, and why.
If everyone had much less access to guns, those who want to do harm could do much less harm before being stopped.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 08:31 pm (UTC)
Meanwhile in China a guy went nuts at a school today & stabbed 22 people, including a number of kids. They've had issues in China with guys going nuts & attacking elementary schools because they want weak targets that can't fight back. He was stopped by unarmed security guards, and only 2 people were seriously, but not fatally, hurt.
The gun people are missing the point & saying "See? All he had was a knife! You want to regulate KNIVES now?" Yeah, no. If he'd had guns it would have been WORSE.Edited at 2012-12-14 08:31 pm (UTC)
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 08:34 pm (UTC)
I too am angry to hear this news, but the first group that I want to blame and unleash my vitriol upon is not any part of the gun rights community. No, I first think to blame our bottom-feeding, debased, all-that-matters-is-more-ad-revenue media, who every time this has happened since Columbine has given it so much wall-to-wall saturation coverage that the first thing that any crazy soul who's truly desperate to make some kind of mark on a world that doesn't care about him thinks of is to shoot up a school. Unless someone uses a nuclear weapon in the middle east, this is going to be the only story on the US media for the next week, until the world doesn't end on Dec. 21. And somewhere out there, there's some guy with nothing to do right now but watch the TV that it's going to make an impression on, and in a year or five, he's going to decide it would be fun to one up this one. And when it happens, to whatever extent it's someone else's fault besides his own, that fault will be on the media extravaganza that planted the seed.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 08:49 pm (UTC)
To the extent that there's a common thread in the mental-health aspect of these events, it's that the shooters are looking for attention, and the media is giving it to them in buckets
. Which reinforces the idea among susceptible viewers that if you want to get attention, one sure way to do it is to create another similar event.
The Internet-troll rule ("Do Not Feed the Energy Creature") applies in this class of cases. If the media would just stop treating these tragedies as spectacle, we might have a decent chance of reducing the number and severity of such events without wading into even more politically sensitive minefields.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 09:31 pm (UTC)
My right to send my kids to school without fear that they will be mass-murdered outweighs your right to own an assault weapon, IMO. My right to watch a movie without thinking that this
one is the one where I will be mowed down with a semi-automatic outweighs your right to own one.
2nd amendment says you have the right to bear arms. But arms have changed quite a bit since the 1780s. No one thinks that Joe Schmo has a right to have a nuclear bomb in his basement. That's ridiculous! But that's just as much of an arm as any of the other weapons the NRA is so fond of.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 09:48 pm (UTC)
No one thinks that Joe Schmo has a right to have a nuclear bomb in his basement. That's ridiculous!
I had this conversation with Libertarian Party members, back when I was a member myself, who said yes, actually, they DID have a Constitutional right to their own nuke, if they wanted one.
I'm willing to be a lot of tea party people are on the same page.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 09:32 pm (UTC)
I felt sick hearing about this. My thoughts are with the families of the victims.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 09:34 pm (UTC)
And now, due to our need for 24/7 instant news, we're learning that they misidentified the shooter. Ryan is the shooter's younger brother, who returned home today to cops in front of his house, and most if not all of his family dead.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 09:48 pm (UTC)
So they got the name wrong? This might cause some confusion in reports about history of the shooter. But according to your comment, the basic fact stands: the shooter shot his own father and mother as well as the school children.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 10:05 pm (UTC)
Someone on Pharyngula said something about the NRA. I hope it's not true, but I got a sick feeling it is.
After JFK got shot there was talk about banning certain types of rifles. The NRA supported the ban. It wasn't until the civil rights era did the NRA go all "keep all the guns" crazy. Yep, once "those people" started pushing back against how they were being treated the NRA suddenly decided people needed more guns.
Like I said, I don't want this to be true. Can anyone confirm/deny it?
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 10:20 pm (UTC)
I doubt it was quite like that -- or like the Atlantic writer's take, either, at http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2011/09/the-secret-history-of-guns/308608/#
He seems to say that it was the Black Panthers who started the pro-gun-rights movement!
Imo, for a parallel development, we might look at the Religious Rightwing's concern with fetuses, which began about the same time, and with the same result: to draw uneducated Democrats into the Republican party.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 10:09 pm (UTC)
bayushisan: Your disclaimer wasn't cowardly
And I'll step up and tell anyone who thinks it was where to get off.
You're right about one thing though, we don't teach people to look up to Mister Rogers anymore. We don't teach kindness, compassion and love for their own sake, we treat those things as weaknesses. You can see it whenever someone famous goes on a food stamp budget to raise awareness of what poor people have to go through and some dim bulb pundit makes fun of them for actually caring about poor people. You see it when people like John Stossel or Bill-O are given air time to talk about how the "takers" are stealing from the "achievers."
We have to start teaching and living kindness for its own sake. How we do that I don't know but we have to start somewhere.
Sun, Dec. 16th, 2012 04:14 am (UTC)
How we teach kindness is through kindness, even after horrific events. It should be done both well and wisely, like any good teaching.
Where we teach it should be where people are learning, meaning television, books, toys, networks, neighborhoods, and possibly schools. It is not something taught on the sports field or in war.
We also need to emphasize it as something to be proud of. Think of how proud Texans are of their local football heroes for their ability to play a brutal game, sometimes ignoring less-desirable traits in favor of this one. Making kindness and compassion laudable for themselves needs a change in the national dialogue. A Presidential Peace Prize, one that names a person or people every single day, might be a good start.
Knowing the answers, that is easy. Implementing the answers is the hard part.
Fri, Dec. 14th, 2012 11:39 pm (UTC)
You said that very nicely, Tom.
I agree with much of what people are saying here about getting people access to mental health care, and that being a part of the solution.
I disagree, like many, with Mr. Obama's not wanting to "politicize" the event by bringing up gun control. The NRA, Fox News and Mike Huckabee are already on that job, on the wrong side of it. More prayer or inflicting religion on school children is no more of a solution than handing out ouzis to kindergarten kids.
The other thing that annoys me is the constant smug self-righteous use of prayer in these situations. Everyone has a right to their own religious views, but I just wish they'd follow this advice of some guy named Matthew: “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward."
No one should ever tell me they will pray for me. I'm likely to tell them, "fine, I'll think for you," then unfriend them on Facebook.
Sat, Dec. 15th, 2012 05:11 am (UTC)
I disagree, like many, with Mr. Obama's not wanting to "politicize" the event by bringing up gun control. The NRA, Fox News and Mike Huckabee are already on that job, on the wrong side of it.
Yes. If discussion is labeled as impolite, only the Rightwingers will control the discussion.
Politicize? To protect against this sort of thing, we make laws. Making of laws, is called politics.
Sat, Dec. 15th, 2012 12:57 am (UTC)
I think I'm going to be ill.
Sat, Dec. 15th, 2012 12:06 am (UTC)
Problem is, all this discussion of gun control is going to be made moot in the next 5-10 years, if not sooner. In that timeframe, 3-D printing is likely going to improve to the point where it is possible to print an entire gun.
Possibly you will not be able to print the barrel itself, in which case there will be a black market in those parts - which are much easier to hide than a full-fledged gun.
Equally likely the tech will advance to the point where the barrel can be printed too. At that point, there is no legislative solution other than draconian regulation of 3-D printing technology.
Sat, Dec. 15th, 2012 12:29 am (UTC)
I find it fascinating how people react to things like these by looking to legislate away anything even vaguely connected to the event at hand (and that nobody ever calls for draconian regulation of machine tools).